Season 1 - Episode 2

Anthony: Good day everyone. um My name is Anthony Scott and I'm your host here for Foundations Podcast and today we have two great people with us and you're going to be excited to hear from them just as much as I'm excited to have them here with me. Today we have Dr Menah Patt-Clark, who is Vice President for Strategic Affairs and Vice Provost for Inclusion and Diversity, and we have Dr. Frank Shushok, who is the Vice President for Student Affairs. I want to welcome you both. uh Thank you for being here Frank. Thank you for being here Menah. Frank: Thank you I'm happy to be here. Anthony: That's great so how's your day going, frank? Frank: It's so far so good, but as I said when I walked in the room, it's always a good day when I'm with Menah Pratt-Clark. He's so kind. Menah: He's so kind. Anthony: He is. Well this is going to be a great time together and I know that both of you are doing great work in your respective areas and also you've come together to do work; and what I really want to focus on today, because what we're trying to do in inclusion and belonging in student affairs, is to help students understand how to get across that barrier that they have when it comes to creating relationships. And we know that there's two areas that come before that that is list-developing listening skills and increasing empathy that will get you to the relationship and I just want to say that I have watched you two for the past couple years and one thing that I noticed is that you work very well together. um And for those of you who don't know, um Frank is a white male; he's a white man, and Menah is a black woman. And they have been able to do incredible work here and I want to give them an opportunity to talk about it, but before we do that I want to ask you one question. Frank, What is one thing you admire most about Menah, and Menah what is one thing you admire most about Frank. Frank: I, first of all, have been really humbled by her incredible leadership at Virginia Tech. I think Menah has helped Virginia Tech clarify the how we connect our land-grant mission to the really important work of inclusion and I think she's humble. I think she is inclusive and collaborative and I think Menah extends an invitation to everyone to be a part of creating a more inclusive environment. The examples are everywhere and I'll just also say I think my experience is that Menah leads with a spirit of grace for others. Menah: Very gracious, thank you. Thank you. I was thinking about one word. I Frank have found you to be extraordinarily authentic.You know it's like what you see, is what you get. There's not a hidden agenda and I think that allows you to be approachable. That level of being authentic that facilitates, I think, the incredible relationships you have with a lot of people; a lot of students. And so that's something I just really admire. It's just the way you show up just authentically as yourself and it's like, "Hey, how's it going"? I mean like even before, in almost every meeting, you're like, "how are you all doing"? Like this just genuine care for people that's not superficial. Frank: Well thanks, that means a lot then next podcast we're going to talk about all Menah's talents that most people don't know. I mean she's a she's a musician, she's an entrepreneur, she's a scholar, she's written so many books, she's a really incredible person, we're lucky to have at Virginia Tech. Anthony: We are. We really are. And what you've both said goes to the caliber of people you are and I realize that both of you are vice presidents, you have a lot of knowledge, you have a lot of uh information but today I just want to really focus in on your relationship. So with that said, Menah one thing I think we can address right here is that a lot of people, and you tell you both tell me if you agree with this, but a lot of people assume we are different immediately based on gender and race. When you get to know each other, you find out that you're more similar than you are different. What do you think about that, Frank? Frank: Yeah, I think what I wanted to say is that, I think we do have lots of similarities but because our identities are different; I'm a white man, she's a black woman, the way you-there's no doubt that people who are white men and people who are black females experience the world differently and particularly in the United States and particularly in the south in the United States. So um we can be similar, but life shapes us in the way that we see the world and I think that's one of the the first places of journey that people have to pursue; is understanding that very true reality that isn't obvious at first blush to someone like me. That the world isn't the same for everybody and that's a really unfortunate thing and isn't that what we're trying to help close the gaps for our students is understanding we want everybody to have the same opportunities and the same experiences? But unfortunately, the journey is the long long road that we're on together. Menah: See, I appreciate that. The what you just said, because it is true. I mean my experience as a black woman is, you know, no way but I can't necessarily imagine your experience as a white man but I appreciate you recognizing that how we probably were raised, how we experienced you know sort of younger years, middle years. You know, the experiences of racism and sexism and sort of other isms that I've experienced, you haven't. I appreciate you acknowledging that and seeking to understand. You know, especially in the role that you play with students and staff and folks who are coming from different backgrounds. It's like, I don't know your background, but I know it's different than mine and that adds a level of responsibility and accountability to try to understand what exactly might be your experience. But you can't assume, you just know it's different, but you can't assume that you know what it is. Anthony: Assumptions play a huge role in developing relationships and it sounds like, you tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the two of you haven't had this type of conversation one-on-one before. So, explain to explain me how how did you get here? I mean at what point did you determine, hey we have a good working relationship that was it just a situation of you had assignments from the president that you had to get done and you had to work together? Or did you just decide and determine that, hey I want to get to know that person um more deeply than just the work? So, if you can go back at what point did you determine that, yes we have a good working relationship. Frank: I'll start and it I mean I admire Menah's character and the goals that she has articulated for Virginia Tech. I realize that many of the things she gives voice to, I care about too. She often sees a different Virginia Tech than I do because of my identity and there are moments, honest moments, where Menah has pointed out that to me and I appreciate that because um I think it builds trust. One, I-for her to tell me what she really experiences and sees tells me that she trusts me enough to share those. Menah: Yeah, the trust is huge. I mean that was one word I was thinking about earlier was trust because I do trust Frank and I do feel that I can say things to Frank that are difficult. I can say you know what happened there?

I feel some kind of way, you know? Even if I don't always have the right words, like I feel some kind of way about what just happened and like I need to talk to you about it. And because I feel that I can talk to him and that you know he will respond honestly, and that you know you have to build up a track record, right? There has to be consistency in a relationship. You know, you can't have an inconsistency and build up trust. Anthony: Right, right. So you have to have consistency, that then allows you to reach the conclusion that I can trust this person. And there have been enough of those points where, yeah I can trust Frank. Anthony: I get it. Now, in any relationship as you talk about that part, Menah, um there comes a time when there is disagreement and I would think that the two of you have had a moment or two like that. um Would you care to talk a little bit about that if you can if you can think of something? A moment of disagreement? Menah: There was a a meeting I think now it was almost two years ago. Frank: Seems like yesterday. Yeah, there was some dynamic in a recurring meeting of senior folks that didn't feel right to me. And the outcome I strongly feel was wrong and I tried to express it in the meeting about how I felt, but it seemed that there was a consensus that you know my point wasn't that my desired outcome wasn't going to happen and um I was upset because I strongly felt it was related to Virginia Tech and it was an issue of justice. And I felt like injustice was happening and that those of us in the room had the power and I felt responsibility to address the issue of injustice. And it didn't happen in the meetings and so after the meeting and I was like, "Frank you know we were there like what what happened"? Like you know, and I think I said, "You said you wanted to be an ally", I mean because this is after you know 2020 was you know 2019 all the civil rights stuff and you know it's like everybody's like okay I'm gonna do the right thing civil rights I was like, "You said you want to be an ally". I'm pretty sure I said that to you I... You did...an alIy. Frank: Yeah. Menah: And you weren't. You weren't in this meeting. And you know I believe you said, "Yes, I I know I agree I should have". And it's like what should and you said, "What should I do"? I said, "You should fix it".

Frank: She did. That is a very accurate articulation of what occurred. And what Menah was saying is, an ally is an ally and you didn't come through and I expect more from you. And that was an incredibly honest thing and I did ask what I should do and I she did say, "fix it". And you know, I was um compelled to be a part of fixing it because of that. I needed that honest moment to see clearly and I'm really grateful for it. Anthony: I will ask Menah, I want to ask you this because we both identify as black, African-American. I often wonder with my white colleagues and friends, how do I advocate for them? Is this something that you've ever thought about or addressed or or or faced? How do you advocate for that person who seems to be in a position of has power, has privilege, has it. Have you ever encountered that? Menah: Yeah, because people are more than their visual identities. The minute you start conversations with people, you realize that there's- everybody has sort of burdens that they're carrying. They have oppression that they're experiencing in their lives not everybody brings it to the surface. You don't always see it. But I think if if you care about humanity and the human condition, then it's not about oh this is a white guy or a white woman or this is a person who's got a particular set of circumstances that I might be privileged in my role and position to help that person. And so for me, although I would say I have a particular sensitivity to people of color, because I know that space and I know that sort of daily burden that we carry, but it doesn't make me blind to the experiences of others as individuals. I feel a responsibility if I can to alleviate that.

Anthony: In listening to you two I if I were to say that I sense one word, that would be empathy. um When I talk to students here on campus and I want to pose to you sort of an example that I would like you to address. Let's say, and it can be any student you envision a student in your mind who's coming to Virginia Tech and that student is new here to Virginia Tech. And day one they have in their mind that I want to be successful here, I want to meet people, I want to have friends, I want to have community, I want to have a sense of belonging. What advice would, and I'll address this to both of you, what advice would you give that student? Frank: Students are going to run into barriers. And it is hard to be a student these days. And it's harder for some, and it's easier for others but it's hard for everybody in some ways. I think people have to ask for help, and to seek people who will support them, and be an ally for them and help them push their way through barriers and be resilient. Just one person linking arms with somebody can make a big difference, I think. Find an ally a mentor ask for help stay with it. Anthony: Definitely. How about you, Menah? What would you tell that student? What would your advice be? Menah: Students and people respond to kindness.

And I remember even with my son, when he was in school and needed to drop a class, and I knew he needed to drop a class because I'm an educated not first-gen parent. So I'm like, dude drop that class. I don't know why you're not getting up and getting to the class but you need to drop it. And so you need to get, you know, everything was paper, you know, several years ago. I need to get a paper form and get it signed by a bunch of people and he said, "Mom the person in the office is not nice. I don't want to go back to the office", and I said, "Buddy you gotta go back". But the person is not nice. It was the receptionist in office. You know, this clerical person is needed to give him the form each time. Like there was no kindness. And I think that going back to Frank's point, it's not what advice do we need to give students, because we always think about how do we fix the students. Like something's the matter with them, they need to come in they need to know this, they need to know that. There's too much to know on a big campus, there's too much to know on a small campus, there's too much know transitioning from high school to college. There's no advice that's really going to resonate. What's going to resonate is kindness. Is knowing that, oh my gosh that person was really nice to me. That administrator, that secretary, that you know person who's cleaning the residence halls, a person who's on the grounds keeping. Like they smiled at me, they said, "Hi, how are you doing today", and that made me feel really good, you know? And so then you will go to get help. Sure. You'll feel like okay they're nice people here, you know, these people will help me. So, I don't think it's advice for the students, it's advice for us because anytime someone shows up you don't know what dynamic they're experiencing but they can always sense. I mean kindness is-kindness is colorblind. Like oh you're black, you're not kind. Or you're white, or you're this, or you're that. It's like, you were just kind and really nice to me. And I just think we have to cultivate that culture of kindness to others and then students will find their way.

Anthony: Menah your example about your son caused me to think about an event we had, maybe a week or two ago, and I was talking to a group about the importance of inclusion and belonging and how everyone needs to have a sense that they belong here in order for them to thrive. Now, this may sound a little bit sophomoric, and I'll ask you to address it, but the reaction I got from this group they I talk to them about talking to people. Introducing yourself and talking and listening and developing relationships. We talked about all of that. But the crowds some in the crowd, I was asked, "how do you do that"? I get the sense that today's generation, and I don't want to be insulting, but I believe today's generation has a-doesn't have those those soft skills to understand how to go up and introduce themselves and and have a a conversation with someone. In a situation like that, what would you tell a student that's that new student on campus, what guidance would you give them?

Menah: We don't do that well. And so then to expect an 18 year old to, you know? I feel like you have to have an environment within for example, the residence halls or a classroom. It's like okay hey we're gonna do blah blah. You know, it's game night, it's get to know, you know. You have some event that brings people together and in the process of that event, they connect. So I think it's, again goes back to us to create those environments where the encounters and the friendships sort of build naturally. I mean, I always-I mean I have this thing about safe spaces and stretch spaces. It's like find your safe space quickly and that's going to be typically based on your identity group. So you're like okay there's the bcc, it's the you know latinx, it's the asian cultural center, it's the international center, it's the rowing club, it's a tennis group. It's I've done this. These are gonna be my people. This is my tribe so I'm like go find your tribe very quickly. That one hobby thing, whatever most sailing identity; go find your people. Go be with them and then once you get that base, because I think those identity based sort of safe spaces give you a foundation that from which then you can go to your stretch spaces. So okay, now these are some unfamiliar people I've always been interested in, you know, knife throwing but your-axe throwing and I, but I've never I've never done it but I've always wanted to do it. So let me just get some little courage so I can be courageous enough to go join the axe throwing club. Knowing that I can come quickly back to my safe space and be okay. So I encourage students find the safe space, but then just just as quickly as you found that safe space, go think about that stretch space where you might be the only woman or you're the only this, or the only that. But then, you know, will find different types of people and make friends with them, so you don't replicate your same network. So when you look around it's like everybody's like me and we're all doing the same things because we never expanded our network out. So that's how I think about, how do you get students organically administer structures within the university need to create that, but then we need to encourage students to have a little bit of courage.

Frank: I think the the inclusion starts with the spirit of hospitality. That assertive moment where we tell someone else that we see them, that we know they're there, and that they are welcome. It's not always comfortable for me to walk up to someone I don't know and say, "Hi, I'm Frank. I'd love to know a little bit about you". But I coach myself to do that because I know that matters to me and it matters whether other people feel seen and welcome. I just think all of us, if we care about inclusion and belonging, we have to tell people that they belong because sometimes they don't feel like they belong. And depending on your identity the way that that gets exercise is all the more important.

Menah: I have to agree with that. Sorry to interrupt. Anthony: No, go ahead. Menah: Because there have been rooms that I've been in and nobody has spoken to me. There have been rooms that I've been in and I've watched somebody come in and shake hands with other people and not shake mine. And so I've just been conscious of when somebody comes in a room where the space is where, you know, I'm there and I'm literally invisible. And I'm not saying that they were, I'm not ascribing oh they just deliberately didn't want to talk I just don't think that they had an awareness about it. So I appreciate sort of that sensitivity of, 'let me make sure there's somebody new here. Let me notice let me speak'.

Anthony: In closing today, I want to ask you-I want to get to a little bit about your work and just ask you, Frank, what are some of the guiding principles that led you to do the work that you do at VT and more um diverse and try to make this place more diverse inclusive and equitable for everyone?

Frank: You know our land grant history is far from perfect. Fundamentally has pointed us outward and I think our motto, "That I may serve", continues to be really valuable for us because it always begs the question of Virginia Tech education for what? An engineering degree for what? An english degree for what? And at the end of that, I think it's easy to come to the conclusion that, we really do need to leave this world better than we found it. And that means less poverty, less racism, more opportunity, more equity, less homophobia. In that the way that we do that here can and will, if we do it right, make a difference in the communities where our students land. So if they have their heart influenced around inclusion and belonging here at Virginia Tech and they have courageous friendships like Menah talked about that have shaped their lives. They will go into communities and do that there and that's how the world gets a little better, a little more inclusive, a little more just. Seems like that is the path. I do believe that these small moves that we make on a college campus to make it more inclusive, can serve the world in ways that move justice forward.

Anthony: And Menah, my last-I want to frame my last question to you because we work at a predominantly white institution and I want to ask you, what do you believe our majority white students can do at this point to engage in diversity and inclusion efforts here at Virginia Tech? Because I seem to think that most of them believe that they aren't welcomed in a place like the black culture center and that they can't go to any of your areas for support. So what is available to them? And if you could speak to a little bit about the white/black issue when it comes to your area?

Menah: You know it's a really difficult question because ,you know, the cultural centers in an ideal world you wouldn't need them. You wouldn't need to create safe spaces for minoritized or marginalized identities. And so the centers have a very complicated role and responsibility because on one hand, it's that safe space for students and so it's a fine line of understanding that a particular population particular identity groups just need to feel that I'm not the only one in a meeting, or the only one in my class and I've got others here. And then at the same time it's like, let's just have a program that's open to the campus. And so I think when there are open programs, I think white students need to feel courageous enough. You know, maybe you're going with a buddy. You know, we're just going to go to that together we're going to say, "Hi". We're going to speak. We're not just going to go and eat the food, right? We're going to go, we're going to go say, "Hi", we're going to eat. I think it has to be that willingness to, I mean-they're small little things like you know group projects. And I remember, the very first event one of the very first events I came to was Uplifting Black Men conference and I'll never forget this because a black student was on stage senior and he said, "you know I've always been chosen last". And so if there are white students who care about, you know, okay I want to do more, I want to do a little, I want to sort of expand my network. Notice, as Frank does, somebody different is in our space. And there are many more white students, majority white students, than people of color and so there's there's more opportunity for more of them to sort of reach out and embrace. And again it goes back to that kindness. Just speaking, just acknowledging, just saying ,"Hi". Just I think that if you come with that sensibility, you know, you could volunteer as a student worker at the CCC and the directors would be glad to have the help. You'll get to just meet students, you know, more informally. um And so I think there's just small ways to just learn and to care and to show up.

Anthony: Well, I really enjoyed our time here together and I really hope that people, everyone who listens, will pick up on the takeaway of how to develop a relationship, how to cultivate this relationship, and how to make sure that you guard your relationship from outside factors; and two you are a great example of that. And I just want to tell you, that I personally appreciate your work. I appreciate you as people and I'm grateful that we still have you here at Virginia Tech. And I hope you'll be here for a little while so thank you both. Frank: Thank you, Anthony. Menah: Thank you, Frank. Frank: Thank you, Menah.